cekoni wrote:
.... but to me is appears that "Jewish Melody" is not so very different from the "old" Plushenko - his exibition programs from the past were always much more unusual than this program. Apart from a couple of interesting new steps and movements, I do not see what is in it is so new, unusual, difficult, customized to the new rules? What there Plushy shows, which has not before?
Plushy can always take out of it "novelties", and incorporate them into new programs, regardless of whether he still working with Zhulin, or not.
In relation to David - you forget that the most spectacular programs and "unprecedented" things - by what Plushy became known and different from other skaters is David Avdish work! ... maybe he is no longer up to date with modern skating, but he in the course, as you said - with what Plushy can and wants to show the public.
And maybe Plushy wants to go further - beyond what we have seen?
In any case, I have a hunch that the music for the Short program is very, veeeeeeeeery modern - maybe something in the style of hard rock, like Scorpions .... so, and choreography is adapted to that style?
Hmm, I guess what I mean about "Jewish Melody" being different is more about the general mood and feeling of it, rather than the specific steps and moves? You are absolutely right that Plushy's exhibition programs were always more unusual than his competition programs--which is why I am more interested in seeing this particular program in competition. In exhibitions Evgeni is pretty much unlimited, but if you ask people their impressions about the "competition Plushenko", usually you get words like powerful, passionate, dominant, kingly, even godlike. It's not completely accurate, because I do think that no two of his programs are completely alike, and he really changes himself--in terms of what he expresses--every year or two. But in general, when I think of his previous competition programs, I always get a sense that the person on ice is extraordinary and grand and not like the rest of us--and that is the part which is being emphasized. (I am not expressing this very well.) But this program? It just my own personal interpretation, of course, but I see someone who is knocked about and bullied, someone who struggles with life, someone almost ordinary. He becomes life-sized (instead of larger-than-life), and vulnerable, and that's something I don't remember as much from his mature competition programs before. I know someone might say it's taking away from that special "divine" aura of Plushy's, but if I may sound completely ridiculous for a moment here, what is more amazing and risky for a god than to come down to earth? (I think he has shown the vulnerable side of him before in exhibition programs (Prisoner, Svetcha, Malade), but in those programs, I still get a sense of grandeur about them.)
I know all this is extremely personal and just about what I happen to like, myself, and that is not important; what is important is what the judges like. But I also can imagine that there is a possible relation. For example, I am of course totally inexpert, but I think the program already has more transitions than what he's had before. Now this is really going to sound vague and strange, and it's very possible that I'm making all this up in my mind, but I sometimes get the feeling that some of the powerful/passionate/divine programs Evgeni had before are precisely the type that--purely aesthetically--could be hurt by too many transitions. I have also heard people characterize Evgeni's skating as "spare", in that he has no unnecessary moves (and they mean that as a praise). It's the kind of thing which needs "negative space", too much that is "busy" and "frilly" can distract and dilute. (Remember how Yuri once said "art is in what you leave out"?) However, the problem is that the ISU seems to currently promote the busy, non-stop type of skating, and seems to have a "more-is-better" philosophy towards transitions. But once one takes away the overt grandeur and holds the power in, goes down to "human-size", somehow I have the feeling that it may be possible to put in more busyness, more little things that count toward transitions and such, but still have them contribute to the overall expression, instead of detracting from it. Because, I don't know, human life is fussy and busy like that? (Sorry, that's off-in-the-clouds philosophical again.) Now of course Plushy could have done a transition-packed COP-friendly program, like what Lori Nichol does for Chan, for instance, without worrying about all this nonsense, or how everything is going to fit, and I was completely ready to accept him sacrificing some art for PCS. But when I saw this program, well, maybe I'm imagining too much about it, but I got the feeling that he's still trying to keep the art, too, and that made me ridiculously happy. So, I don't know, it's another reason why I hope he would keep it, because I think the COP and the current ISU philosophy are very restrictive artistically, and I don't know if there are that many ways of doing it.
I do agree there are many parts of the "Jewish Melody" program, for instance the specific step sequences, still seemed to be recycling things Plushy has done before. But there were also new things, and the program was still unfnished. There are still lots of places that can be changed and added to. In fact, and this may be completely wishful thinking for my part, but I was thinking that Mishin saying "there are blanks in the LP" could still possibly refer to that? Of course, I only read the English translation, and I have no idea how it was really said in Russian, so maybe I am completely wrong.
For David, actually one strange thought I had is what he might bring to the "Maybe I, Maybe You" exhibition program--if Plushy is intending to ever skate it again. I know people have complaints about that program, but I for myself really like the general direction he seemed to be taking that program, and I like some of the ideas Marina had. There are places that looked awkward, though, and I wonder what David would or could do to this program. I don't know, it just somehow seems like something that might fit him. I don't care about how it fits the fashionable criteria for what constitutes "good skating". The kind of notions the ISU and "experts" are promoting are restrictive enough for competitive programs, I don't need to see them in an exhibition.
clairdelalune wrote:
We are not talking about shows, we are talking about COMPETITION!!!! It doesn´t matter what David did for him in the past and how "unusual" it was. When we say he needs something different, it means that he needs a program adapted to the rules, COP FRIENDLY. Different means:
- it has (good) transitions, Evgeni is not doing 100000 crosscuts
- it´s not frontloaded
- good footwork- level 3 + GOE,
- good choreography- Evgeni is not flailing his arms
- etc, I don´t remember now.
It´s easy, he just needs someone who can create such a program, it´s nothing philosophical!!!!!
I agree that Evgeni needs a COP friendly program, but if that's all one's aiming for, one might as well just go with Lori Nichol...I know how important it is to please the judges, in order to win, but purely selfishly and idealistically, and just for myself, I also hope that Evgeni can somehow find a way of doing it without becoming like everybody else.
I suspect the frontloading has a lot to do with Evgeni's physical issues. If he can improve his physical stamina then I think it would not be so much of an problem, otherwise there is no point in putting more to the second half if he's going to end up struggling with it. As for footwork levels and GOE, remember how Lysacek had his footwork sequences upgraded from level 3 to level 4 at the Olympics without any actual changes? I hope to see good footwork that gets high levels and GOE, but I also want to mention that sometimes the GOE and the levels are not 100% related to what one actually does on ice. As for "flailing his arms", well, it depends on what one means by good choreography, I think. Personally I think "flailing" is appropriate sometimes, but whether the judges think so is another matter. (I also think the "Jewish Melody" program probably won't have much of that.)
dimi wrote:
I wanted to say that when i say I d like him to keep Zhulin , i dont necessarily mean I want him to keep this program he did in italy. First of all the music, he has done hava nagila before and it is a dated music, there are one gazilion music choices from clasical to more contemborary music, I dont know why evgeni would chose hava nagila again and what he can expresses through that. I dont want this music to be kept all in all.
I completely agree with you about keeping Zhulin, especially in terms of emphasizing edges, etc. With the music, I remember Evgeni saying in April that he wanted to change the music (at the least), too? I don't know, the music, as it was in Torino, now sounds kind of provisional to me. Hava Nagila is Jewish, and it is dance music with a strong rhythm, so it's one of the obvious choices that kind of fits the image, if one hasn't had the chance to work more seriously on the music yet. To me, I still think that even within this particular program, the specific piece of music is less important than the feeling he's trying to convey, so it definitely can be changed.
With Stravinsky, I do admit there are some Stravinsky pieces that I'd be curious about seeing Evgeni skate, but in general, I am not sure that "better music" necessarily makes for a better program. Ultimately, it has to be music that Evgeni connects to. By the way one thing that really annoyed me about Evan Lysacek and his Olympics program was that he said later that he didn't even like Stravinsky, or Russian music in general, but that with some lessons from a Russian dance, he somehow learned to be more Russian and managed to beat Plushy "at his own game" (or something similar to that). Now it's not very clear what he meant by Plushy's own game (since for one thing Evgeni wasn't skating to Russian music in competition that season), but it kind of sounded to me like it is "being Russian", somehow. If that is the case, frankly if I were Russian I'd be pretty offended that some non-Russian person actually thinks he became more Russian than Evgeni Plushenko with a couple of lessons...