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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby dimi » 28 Jun 2011, 22:16

IT IS A GOOD THING that Zhulin insists on his ideas, CAUSE if we let Plushy insisting on his own ideas, flies and bees will start flying again :-) . I pray to all possible gods he will keep Zhulin. Marina, David or whoever can do his exhibtions. I so want Carmelego to work with eVGENI, where can I send a fax? Mishin is really a genious clever man, I cant believe he hasnt thought of it.
Zhulin was a great ice dancer and the programs he did last few seasons for all his teams were very fresh. David Advish was making the programs for Russian skaters like of Dimitriev with his partners and was a huge success in the 90s, thats about 20 years ago.

When we disagree it is only because Plushy in hospital and in pain is a bigger sacrifice than changing some basic stuff, he said he has found the best doctors for him, why not the best choreographers? Cause I believe he has the best ever coach anyway, nobody can surpass Mishin in my opinion, Caroll for example take already accomplished skaters and puts a Nicol Choreo, Mishin is a scientist and a great person.

I dont want to hear a Marton song again for competition. EVER.

Krudy where Mishin said about Marton?
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby Таня » 28 Jun 2011, 22:59

И чего все так всполошились? :mi_ga_et: Может Эдвин тоже сменит имидж и насочиняет такой шедевр, что мы все ахнем! :bra_vo:
Евгений Плющенко: "Спорт - это моя жизнь. Спортивные достижения во славу России - это моя религия. Для меня это не просто слова, это суть всего, что я делал и делаю в спорте."
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby whitebamboo » 29 Jun 2011, 03:32

I just wrote a long, long post about why I hope Plushy will keep the Zhulin "Jewish Melody" program, but then the forum kicked me off and I lost it. :is_te_ri_ka: I'll try to type it again...Firstly, I guess we're all worried about Plushy's competition programs next season, but to be honest I think we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions at this point yet?

It is of course extremely important to give the judges what they are looking for, and I am absolutely sure that Plushy and his team understand all the issues much better than we do. But on the other hand, Evgeni is also not like, say, Evan Lysacek, who seems to just do whatever others decide for him, and who openly says that he does not like the music of his program, and appears to see nothing wrong with such a statement. Plushy has said before that he needs to "feel" the music, or it would not work. Whatever he does on ice, there has to be a connection with what's inside of him. This makes everything a lot harder, but it's also what makes him an artist, and it is what makes him different from other skaters. One thing that always amazed me is that I remember him saying "if you want to know me, watch me skate". What other skater can truly say such a thing?

I still very much hope for next season, he will decide to keep the Zhulin program that we saw. Not only because I believe it can be a very successful competition program, in terms of what judges like, but also (a separate and completely different reason) because I really like the program, and I think it has the potential to be something quite extraordinary, artistically, and represent a major expansion of Plushy's (already very large) expressive range. However, just as an exercise, I wanted to play "devil's advocate" a little, and tried to think of some possible reasons why one would not want to do it.

With the music, I remember Evgeni said in April that he did not "feel" the music yet. I listened to the music of the program, without watching the video, and deliberately tried to find fault with it. With that mindset, I think it is possible to find the first half a little monotonous, in terms of melody. Some other parts may also be a little...lackluster? I am not certain about this, but I get the feeling that Plushy's tastes in music currently tend to more passionate pieces, with more tension, that "grab" the listener more immediately? :plush38: Actually, this is something Edvin may possibly be able to help with, if he can improve the music to give it a bit more variety and edge, for example some kind of "Jewish fiddle" type of arrangements may work. But in my own (very inexpert) opinion, a sense of restraint (instead of overt passion) is needed for the mood of this piece, a sound that's not the Strad would probably fit better, and over-emphasizing the violin would probably not work well. So if this were to be done (a very big if, I know), I think it would require Edvin to do something completely new and different, too.

With the new program itself, I love the fact that it is so different from the Plushy we already know, but it is possible to feel (very superficially) that because it is so different, it is no longer clear what is so "uniquely Plushenko" about it. I certainly do not presume to know what's in Evgeni's mind, but sometimes I cannot help but wonder if he would really find the fact that "it gets positive reviews from people who normally dislike him" such a good thing. I have also heard people say it reminds them of Jeremy Abbott's "Life is Beautiful" program. I think the similarities, if any, are very shallow. To my own mind, this program is already something different, not only from the "old Plushenko", but also from what other skaters can do. Plushy is older now and is capable of putting in much more depth into his programs than other, younger skaters--because he is a person with a lot of depths inside of him. One possibility is to go for a kind of "smiling-through-the-tears", optimism-and-dignity-despite-life's-difficulties theme, perhaps? That is something that I believe Evgeni certainly has a lot of, himself.

With Zhulin's working style, I don't know very much about it, but if he is "categorical and insistent on his ideas", then it does worry me a lot. Not because I think his ideas are not good (I think this particular idea is wonderful), but I suspect it may not be the best style for dealing with Evgeni, personality-wise. (And as for David, perhaps I like his work better than most Plushy fans seem to, these days. He is not so well-fitted to the current skating rules, but to my personal eyes, I think he has the advantage of understand Evgeni, and his strength seems to be in bringing out things that are already in Evgeni, but are not immediately obvious.) Nevertheless, I think it is possible to find some kind of middle ground, which would allow Evgeni to find his emotional connection with the program, his own "angle", so to speak, but also attempt things that are not right-away "easy" for him.

I want to say that the above are not necessarily my actual opinions about the program, and I am also not saying these are what Plushy is thinking. I was deliberately looking for (or even making up) issues with the Zhulin program, but I still think all these (imaginary) issues can be dealt with, or even turned to positive use. This program, I think, requires a lot of restraint, but it does not mean that Plushy's old sense of power and passion would no longer be there. Rather, I fantasize about seeing it all "held inside", turned into an undercurrent. I know all these things I'm going on about sound crazy and unrealistic, and I know it's imagining a tremendous deal, but I still feel there is space for more depth in this particular program--because there always is. Of course, as a fan, I for myself do not want to say that he "must" or "should" do things this way or that way. If Plushy really just "doesn't feel it", then it's simply not meant to be and I will respect that, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. But I think this program has a chance to represent a big growth in Plushy's already extraordinary artistic level (and never mind the judges!), and so--selfishly, I know--it would feel like a pity to pass it up.

(Whew. Sorry for the very long post in English. I can get very wordy at times...)
Last edited by whitebamboo on 29 Jun 2011, 06:24, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby Kudryavka » 29 Jun 2011, 04:15

dimi wrote:Krudy where Mishin said about Marton?

No, Mishin just said like Zhenya already has an exhibition program and the music for short program, but he doesn't yet have free program.

Okay, I found this. Interview 2 weeks ago.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6&start=1070#p54270
....He had made a new Exibition program, there were blanks in the Free program, selected music for the Short program.....

:plush34:


whitebamboo wrote:I just wrote a long, long post about why I hope Plushy will keep the Zhulin "Jewish Melody" program, but then the forum kicked me off and I lost it. :is_te_ri_ka:

Obviously, this is the curse of David :-)
He didn't compete for three years, but as soon as I saw him, I knew that there was a true Olympic Champion on the ice. - Takahiko Kozuka, Rostelecom Cup 2009
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby cekoni » 29 Jun 2011, 06:39

dimi wrote:....
Krudy where Mishin said about Marton?

Before few months, Mishin said (paraphrase):
"You will see a completely new Plushenko, not Marton's Plushenko, but completely different Plushenko"

... something like that :du_ma_et: :hi_hi_hi:



whitebamboo wrote:... I think we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions at this point yet?...

... Plushy has said before that he needs to "feel" the music, or it would not work. Whatever he does on ice, there has to be a connection with what's inside of him....

... I think it is possible to find the first half a little monotonous, in terms of melody.... Plushy's tastes in music currently tends to more passionate pieces, with more tension, that "grab" the listener more immediately? Actually, this is something Edvin may possibly be able to help with, if he can improve the music to give it a bit more variety and edge,....
... With the new program itself, I love the fact that it is so different from the Plushy we already know, but it is possible to feel (very superficially) that because it is so different, it is no longer clear what is so "uniquely Plushenko" about it....
... To my own mind, this program is already something different, not only from the "old Plushenko", but also from what other skaters can do....

.... With Zhulin's working style, I don't know very much about it, but if he is "categorical and insistent on his ideas", then it does worry me a lot. Not because I think his ideas are not good (I think this particular idea is wonderful), but I suspect it may not be the best style for dealing with Evgeni, personality-wise. (And as for David, perhaps I like his work better than most Plushy fans seem to, these days. He is not so well-fitted to the current skating rules, but to my personal eyes, I think he has the advantage of understand Evgeni, and his strength seems to be in bringing out things that are already in Evgeni, but are not immediately obvious.)....

... If Plushy really just "doesn't feel it", then it's simply not meant to be and I will respect that, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.....

I agree with most of your statements and thoughts. :plush45:

:du_ma_et: .... but to me is appears that "Jewish Melody" is not so very different from the "old" Plushenko - his exibition programs from the past were always much more unusual than this program. Apart from a couple of interesting new steps and movements, I do not see what is in it is so new, unusual, difficult, customized to the new rules? What there Plushy shows, which has not before? :ne_vi_del:
Plushy can always take out of it "novelties", and incorporate them into new programs, regardless of whether he still working with Zhulin, or not. :mi_ga_et:

In relation to David - you forget that the most spectacular programs and "unprecedented" things - by what Plushy became known and different from other skaters is David Avdish work! :plush45: ... maybe he is no longer up to date with modern skating, but he in the course, as you said - with what Plushy can and wants to show the public. :a_g_a:

And maybe Plushy wants to go further - beyond what we have seen? :mi_ga_et:
:ts_ss: In any case, I have a hunch that the music for the Short program is very, veeeeeeeeery modern - maybe something in the style of hard rock, like Scorpions .... so, and choreography is adapted to that style? :hi_hi_hi:
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby Ирина » 29 Jun 2011, 08:19

А я рада,что Эдвин пишет музыку для новых программ :smu:sche_nie: .Он,как правило,в точку попадает.Мощные,победные и Женя очень хорошо их чувствует.Только бы Эдвин не схалтурил :plush35: ,а написал победную :plush45: :plush46: ,проникновенную,офигенную :-) музыку. А это он умеет :a_g_a:
..."Российский фигурист Евгений Плющенко добился уникального достижения. Он выступил на четвертых Олимпийских играх - и выиграл четвертую медаль,став двукратным олимпийским чемпионом! "...
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby clairdelalune » 29 Jun 2011, 10:49

cekoni wrote:
whitebamboo wrote:... I think we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions at this point yet?...

... Plushy has said before that he needs to "feel" the music, or it would not work. Whatever he does on ice, there has to be a connection with what's inside of him....

... I think it is possible to find the first half a little monotonous, in terms of melody.... Plushy's tastes in music currently tends to more passionate pieces, with more tension, that "grab" the listener more immediately? Actually, this is something Edvin may possibly be able to help with, if he can improve the music to give it a bit more variety and edge,....
... With the new program itself, I love the fact that it is so different from the Plushy we already know, but it is possible to feel (very superficially) that because it is so different, it is no longer clear what is so "uniquely Plushenko" about it....
... To my own mind, this program is already something different, not only from the "old Plushenko", but also from what other skaters can do....

.... With Zhulin's working style, I don't know very much about it, but if he is "categorical and insistent on his ideas", then it does worry me a lot. Not because I think his ideas are not good (I think this particular idea is wonderful), but I suspect it may not be the best style for dealing with Evgeni, personality-wise. (And as for David, perhaps I like his work better than most Plushy fans seem to, these days. He is not so well-fitted to the current skating rules, but to my personal eyes, I think he has the advantage of understand Evgeni, and his strength seems to be in bringing out things that are already in Evgeni, but are not immediately obvious.)....

... If Plushy really just "doesn't feel it", then it's simply not meant to be and I will respect that, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.....

I agree with most of your statements and thoughts. :plush45:

:du_ma_et: .... but to me is appears that "Jewish Melody" is not so very different from the "old" Plushenko - his exibition programs from the past were always much more unusual than this program. Apart from a couple of interesting new steps and movements, I do not see what is in it is so new, unusual, difficult, customized to the new rules? What there Plushy shows, which has not before? :ne_vi_del:
Plushy can always take out of it "novelties", and incorporate them into new programs, regardless of whether he still working with Zhulin, or not. :mi_ga_et:

In relation to David - you forget that the most spectacular programs and "unprecedented" things - by what Plushy became known and different from other skaters is David Avdish work! :plush45: ... maybe he is no longer up to date with modern skating, but he in the course, as you said - with what Plushy can and wants to show the public. :a_g_a:

And maybe Plushy wants to go further - beyond what we have seen? :mi_ga_et:
:ts_ss: In any case, I have a hunch that the music for the Short program is very, veeeeeeeeery modern - maybe something in the style of hard rock, like Scorpions .... so, and choreography is adapted to that style? :hi_hi_hi:



We are not talking about shows, we are talking about COMPETITION!!!! It doesn´t matter what David did for him in the past and how "unusual" it was. When we say he needs something different, it means that he needs a program adapted to the rules, COP FRIENDLY. Different means:
- it has (good) transitions, Evgeni is not doing 100000 crosscuts
- it´s not frontloaded
- good footwork- level 3 + GOE,
- good choreography- Evgeni is not flailing his arms
- etc, I don´t remember now.
It´s easy, he just needs someone who can create such a program, it´s nothing philosophical!!!!!

dimi wrote:....
Krudy where Mishin said about Marton?


http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skat ... 60494.html
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby dimi » 29 Jun 2011, 14:10

whitebamboo wrote:whole post



great post :co_ol:

I wanted to say that when i say I d like him to keep Zhulin , i dont necessarily mean I want him to keep this program he did in italy. First of all the music, he has done hava nagila before and it is a dated music, there are one gazilion music choices from clasical to more contemborary music, I dont know why evgeni would chose hava nagila again and what he can expresses through that. I dont want this music to be kept all in all.
What he made different with this program..? I really cant write them down. But when i saw it , my heart skipped. It was an image I had not seen for a long time, it was fresh, it had diffrent mood changes, in between stuff, I was looking at his feet constantly which kept moving in different directions and it showed that Evgeni can keep to the choreo (up until straight sequence anyway :-) ) something I long missed. I want to make the point here. If you watch Carmen, St Peter 300 and Nijinski for example, more or less through out the year the program is the same. Maybe in the beginning of season it was rough and a little different but from competition to competition it was more clear his choreo in there. You knew as a fan he does this there, that there..In Tango in 2009-10, while I have seen the program live a gazillion times, it was changing from competition to competition and I never had a clear image either of his steps or choreo,I cant explain better but I felt that there was some improvising from the Tango in shows there.
David has made a great bunch of programs of him during 6.0 era, and I dare say that although the Godfather is a Cop era, it was in the begining of COP , where judges and fans didnt have a clear image of what they want, and basically Godfather has the layout more or less of a 6.0 era program. I cant deny that he has made some very cool programs. But there are a dozen of great choreographers and composers apart from david and edvin.
One thing I had read bitterly in Vancouver was that Lysacek won in the music department, he used two russian warhorses, two famouss music pieces (which he totally killed them _not in a good way- in my honest opinion :sh_ok: ) , how can you compete Marton with Stravinsky? I so wish Evgeni skating to Scheherazade(the whole music , not just the little pieces in Nijinski) ,can you imagine him doing a Persian Prince?

Zhulin was an ice dancer, which means he gives emphasys to edges and moves in the field, evgeni doenst need anything to enhance in jumps and presentation department, thats why i also liked Melisa and Dennis, because they were great ice dancers too! Secondly he is russian, so he can communicate with and feel Evgeni better. From april interview though i ahd the feeling that plushy wasnt thrilled with colaboration, so i dont know what to expect.
David Wilson I cant imagine with Evgeni, I dont like his job very much except for Yuna James Bond. Lori Nichol is out of question, she is a recyclying program bitch.
I like Dickson, Lee Bourne and most of all Camerlengo, he is italian and his programs have fire and passion! :plush32:
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby clairdelalune » 29 Jun 2011, 14:20

dimi wrote:One thing I had read bitterly in Vancouver was that Lysacek won in the music department, he used two russian warhorses, two famouss music pieces (which he totally killed them _not in a good way- in my honest opinion :sh_ok: ) , how can you compete Marton with Stravinsky?


Yes!!! My mother who thinks Lysacek is boring as hell said the same thing, that at least he had nice music. I don´t want to repeat how Lysacek looks skating to Russian classical music, my mother was simply horrified! :plush44:


dimi wrote:Zhulin was an ice dancer, which means he gives emphasys to edges and moves in the field, evgeni doenst need anything to enhance in jumps and presentation department, thats why i also liked Melisa and Dennis, because they were great ice dancers too! Secondly he is russian, so he can communicate with and feel Evgeni better. From april interview though i ahd the feeling that plushy wasnt thrilled with colaboration, so i dont know what to expect.
David Wilson I cant imagine with Evgeni, I dont like his job very much except for Yuna James Bond. Lori Nichol is out of question, she is a recyclying program bitch.
I like Dickson, Lee Bourne and most of all Camerlengo, he is italian and his programs have fire and passion! :plush32:


:a_g_a: :co_ol:
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Re: Женя и его окружение || Zhenya and his environment

Postby dimi » 29 Jun 2011, 14:26

clairdelalune wrote: I don´t want to repeat how Lysacek looks skating to Russian classical music, my mother was simply horrified! :plush44:



All i know was that Stravinsky must had been turning upside down in his grave.
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